WAKE UP MARVEL!!!!

[pancho1007]

I simply do not understand what is going on over at the Marvel camp....I mean, are they purposely trying to sink their own ship?? It seems that they have totally lost touch with their comic fans and just stop giving a hoot about making good books.To wit:

They have so many stupid versions going on that it is just getting impossible to follow....DC did the same thing before with the multiple Earths and I think its safe to say that it all that it produced was multiple headaches. The only explanation that I can come up with is that Marvel is just too cocky or too stupid to figure out that nine versions of wolverine is just not the answer.

Also what were they smoking when they decided to make spider-man afro/mexican???? Are they that LAZY and UNTALENTED to create a NEW character that would appeal to millions?Instead someone decided that it would be a fantastic idea of handing down a well known character and changing his race to appease two of their demographics?

Lastly the X-men....Has anyone else noticed that X books have become so cheesy and predictable as of late? "Schism" promised to bring such intense drama to our fave mutants with talks of intense twists and a roller coaster ride of emotions...Sadly all it was just a reason to give Wolverine a reason to run a school. The writers didnt even try! I mean if you really look at it, the reason the entire mutant race was split in two was because Cyclops and Logan wanted to prove that Jean loved one more than the other. This leads to the story being sooo predictable, because I can guarantee anyone out there that when Jean comes back from this whole Avengers vs X-men thing she will , without a shadow of a doubt, be with wolverine. Oh and one more thing...why is there an abundance of female mutants??? Has anyone noticed this??It seems that every month theres a new prepubescent girl discovering that she has an x gene...what is this all about?

[therapist]

I simply do not understand what is going on over at the Marvel camp....I mean, are they purposely trying to sink their own ship?? It seems that they have totally lost touch with their comic fans and just stop giving a hoot about making good books

Oh yeah you know whats sooooo much better. Revamping every freaking book and story throwing away decades of stories and history. Completly ignoring certain characters and events. Yeah thats not alienating to the comic fans at all

What Im trying to say is look at any company. Its getting bad all over. Not just Marvel. Truth is comics are losing money the buisness is not what it once was and they have no other choice besides trying to grab every darn dollar they can.

[leafman343]

I'm going to take a moment to address some of this even though it's against my better judgement

Also what were they smoking when they decided to make spider-man afro/mexican???? Are they that LAZY and UNTALENTED to create a NEW character that would appeal to millions?Instead someone decided that it would be a fantastic idea of handing down a well known character and changing his race to appease two of their demographics?

Firstly Peter was replaced by Miles Morales in the Ultimate universe only, if you don't like Miles, you still have the Amazing and Avenging Spider-Man titles to read about Parker. Second, was it wrong with Miles being half black/half Latino? He appeals to pretty much everyone Peter did (minus racists) and adds a minority ethnicity hero to Marvels ranks, which the super hero community has been sorely lacking. Do you also have a problem with Ultimate Nick Fury being black?

Oh and one more thing...why is there an abundance of female mutants??? Has anyone noticed this??It seems that every month theres a new prepubescent girl discovering that she has an x gene...what is this all about?

Again this is Marvel trying to appeal to a wider audience, women/girls do read comics. How many female heroes does Marvel currently have that has their own title? 3? 4? Marvel Comics can't just be a few scantily clad women and a bunch of burly men and creating young heroines is a good way to attract young female readers, like they say "ya gotta hook 'em when they're young".

[pancho1007]

Firstly Peter was replaced by Miles Morales in the Ultimate universe only, if you don't like Miles, you still have the Amazing and Avenging Spider-Man titles to read about Parker. Second, was it wrong with Miles being half black/half Latino? He appeals to pretty much everyone Peter did (minus racists) and adds a minority ethnicity hero to Marvels ranks, which the super hero community has been sorely lacking. Do you also have a problem with Ultimate Nick Fury being black?

Thank you for stating that there are 2 versions of spiderman to choose from captain hindsight..and yes I do have a problem with fury being black, cast aside that I already have a huge problem with the Ultimate Universe anyway... Couldn't they come up wit an original Afro Character that would lead S.H.I.E.L.D.? Couldnt they just have made Luke Cage the new director? I mean, why did they just stop there if they wanted to be so bold...They could have given us a Middle-Eastern Cap, or a Female Chinese Thor, or even an East-Indian Iron-Man...If they were so eager to add to the minority ethnicity ranks, why couldnt they just come up with fresh new characters? Is it so much hard to ask for a cool original Mexican hero rather than a hand me down? Are you suggesting that I should thank whoever came up with the Miles Morales idea for trying to represent? Are you saying that an original Mexican character wouldnt do as well?

Marvel Comics can't just be a few scantily clad women and a bunch of burly men and creating young heroines is a good way to attract young female readers, like they say "ya gotta hook 'em when they're young".

A few scantily? Well let me educate you on something about the roster of the x-men characters...Rogue,Storm, Emma Frost, Domino, Psylocke, Polaris, Shadow Cat, Jubilee,Dazzler, Blink,Husk, Boomer, Phoenix, Syrin, and Im sure there are others that im forgetting, these are just some of the female charachters living in the x-men universe..now Im all for diversity and all that but how many new male characters are out there?? Dont you believe in a 1:1 ratio??? Oh and as for hooking them while they are young, I sure hope you dont own a windowless van.

[therapist]

Your comincoming off very hostile to poor leafman who is a respected and beloved member here. Not cool. But ithe good news with that is it means I get to be a hostile aggressive fanboy who cant make a debate wwithout flinging insults too! YAY! When was the last time you even picked up a marvel comic? Are you for real asking for a list of new characters. Especially with the X-men a team who is facing the fact that in comic universe they arent increasing in numbers? As for that list you gave I pray that isnt a list of scantily clad women cuz next to none of them are what Id consider scantily clad. You wanna talk about scantily clad how bout DCs Starfire or Power Girl or how many characters come with standard issue fishnets. Hell even supergirls middriff and mini skirt. Dont even get me started on the worst offenders over at Image

Pre New 52 I always chose DC over marvel but I still love marvel and cant stand some hater fanboy who has no clue what they are talking about. Also leafman you know you made some really good points when the best the other guy can do is hurl some childish insults that made no sense and does nothing but prove he knows NOTHING about buisness

Also pancho half what you said makes no sense. I cant even tell if you were trying to say those Xmen feales are scantily clad or are new. Both of those are complete BS. Im guessing from your hatred of a african american Nick Fury and your desperation for new mexican characters that this angst filled hatred may be filled by your equally angsty and annoying Mexican Jamie Reyes AKA new blue beetle. Well how about you take a history of comics lesson and realize for the majority of times Mexican characters DO NOT sell. Its just the way it is. Asian characters also sell very poorly thats why most asian characters are relagated to team or sidekick roles. Maybe it has something to do with Asian community making up a VERY small portion of the comic cumminuty.

You want marvel to take chances and make racially divorce cast? How bout Dust? One of comics first muslim superheroes that there religion played a prominent role in their character. Rictor, Shatterstar, & Northstar some of comics first openly gay characters. Daken one of the very few Bisexual characters. Arana a mexican...who didnt sell. I would mention Isiah bradley the black captain america but you seem to take offence to black people. On that note please dont refer to us as Afro (Im half black) thats just patronizing. Jubilee was one of the first Asian characters. Again don't get me started on the roles Black Panther and Storm have played ...oops I forgot black characters don't count.

Excuse marvel for actually catoring to fans and honoring their legacies and not just throwing it all out the window.

Also seeming Black Spiderman offends you so much maybe you should relize Blach characters are the second highest selling race of characters behind white. Marvel is just doing what DC is doing. They start with a black version of one of their top characters. DC did it with Superman his name is Steel now they are doin it with batman his name is batwing. -

[leafman343]

Thank you for stating that there are 2 versions of spiderman to choose from captain hindsight..and yes I do have a problem with fury being black, cast aside that I already have a huge problem with the Ultimate Universe anyway... Couldn't they come up wit an original African American Character that would lead S.H.I.E.L.D.? Couldnt they just have made Luke Cage the new director? I mean, why did they just stop there if they wanted to be so bold...They could have given us a Middle-Eastern Cap, or a Female Chinese Thor, or even an East-Indian Iron-Man...If they were so eager to add to the minority ethnicity ranks, why couldnt they just come up with fresh new characters? Is it so much hard to ask for a cool original Mexican hero rather than a hand me down? Are you suggesting that I should thank whoever came up with the Miles Morales idea for trying to represent? Are you saying that an original Mexican character wouldnt do as well?

Comics is a hard business, introducing new heroes is difficult because many readers already have their favorite heroes. That ends up meaning that the new characters don't catch on. While I understand your point that you would rather see completely new original characters than a new one riding on a existing character's legacy, it is that legacy that helps the readers accept and hopefully embrace the new character.
And yes I am saying that on their own, a new original Mexican hero would not sell well. In a group setting where we have time to warm up to this character, it might take off and do astonishing. It is uncanny how that works.

A few scantily? Well let me educate you on something about the roster of the x-men characters...Rogue,Storm, Emma Frost, Domino, Psylocke, Polaris, Shadow Cat, Jubilee,Dazzler, Blink,Husk, Boomer, Phoenix, Syrin, and Im sure there are others that im forgetting, these are just some of the female charachters living in the x-men universe..now Im all for diversity and all that but how many new male characters are out there?? Dont you believe in a 1:1 ratio???

That was a bit tongue in cheek, calling them scantily clad, though I think Emma Frost, Psylocke, Black Queen, Elektra and (sometimes) Storm do fall into the category of fighting crime in their underoos/bathing suits. I know there are, at least in the mutant portion of the MU, plenty of heroines. The problem there is that they don't get much time in the spotlight, so rather than dredging up old characters that for whatever reason weren't popular enough to carry a title, Marvel is intent on making new ones. Remember that bit I mentioned about legacies? This is where bringing in characters that have one can be a bad idea because readers will have preconceived notions about how the character should act.

Oh and as for hooking them while they are young, I sure hope you dont own a windowless van.

I'm afraid you might not be familiar with that saying, it comes from an era when tobacco companies marketed to kids, thinking that if you get them addicted early they will be life long customers. Same concept here, get kids into comics with relatable characters and they will buy comics for a long time to come. Think of the prepubescent girl mutants as a bit of a gateway drug. Girls at that age will be able to relate to those characters because, Lord knows, at that age there is a lot of turmoil in their lives, struggling with the changes going on and trying to find their own identity. The girls latch on to the characters as someone who knows and understands how they feel, then of course they are introduced to the MU at large.
An interesting point here, I read in the letters section of Daredevil just yesterday, issue #9, a girl, 13 years old wrote in to say how much she loved Daredevil and that her friend was the one that introduced her to the comic.

[pancho1007]

When was the last time you even picked up a marvel comic?

I actually just read Schism, Spider-Island and Fear Itself... Excluding Spider Island they all sucked!! When did YOU last read a Marvel book? Lets see Schism was just awful...In fact its just too awful for words.As for Fear Itself, well they just proved once more that in the comic book world no big hero dies...How original!!

Are you for real asking for a list of new characters. Especially with the X-men a team who is facing the fact that in comic universe they arent increasing in numbers? As for that list you gave I pray that isnt a list of scantily clad women cuz next to none of them are what Id consider scantily clad. You wanna talk about scantily clad how bout DCs Starfire or Power Girl or how many characters come with standard issue fishnets. Hell even supergirls middriff and mini skirt. Dont even get me started on the worst offenders over at Image

My guess is that you didnt read the entire post as seeing as the issue I had was that the ratio of female to male characters is just off! As to phrase from leafman pointing out that "Marvel Comics can't just be a few scantily clad women and a bunch of burly men". The list was to point out that there were already a fair amount of female characters that existed before in the 90's that female readers can relate to, but I guess sitting down and trying to read everything is just too hard for you..It does however explain how you can stand Marvel books as of late.

Well how about you take a history of comics lesson and realize for the majority of times Mexican characters DO NOT sell. Its just the way it is. Asian characters also sell very poorly thats why most asian characters are relagated to team or sidekick roles. Maybe it has something to do with Asian community making up a VERY small portion of the comic cumminuty.

Now I wonder why these demographics make up a VERY small portion of the community???hmmmmmmm..... Maybe it has something to do about NOT HAVING ORIGINAL CHARACTERS that these demographics can relate to... Can I not state this enough?!?!?!?!? How many has brave Marvel produced as of late??? Oh and ARANA is not an original character because she is just a female version of SPIDERMAN!!!Arana could have been any race and I guarantee you the book wouldn sell.Do you consider that original????? You should really look up what the word "ORIGINAL" means...

And "Black Fury" is nice because the idea is NOT ORIGINAL!!!You really think that a black version of Fury leading the Avengers is better than Luke Cage or Sam Wilson?!?!?!?!? I would have even bought BLADE as the New director of SHIELD! Wait!! I forgot you would rather be HANDED DOWN a WHITE HERO and call it your own!! I cant believe you actually sat there with a smile and accepted it??Specially since you are "half black". I sure hope the other half isnt "stupid" , but with your flawless reasoning I highly doubt it.

Where do you get off that I insinuated that black characters dont count???? Because I dont agree with Black Fury and Black/Mexican Spiderman????Wait, YOU do know that Miles MORALES is half Mexican right????(OH NO!!! THE BOOK WILL ONLY DO HALF AS GOOD! If only he was the child of Storm and T'chala then it would stand a chance!! )

you want marvel to take chances and make racially divorce cast? How bout Dust? One of comics first muslim superheroes that there religion played a prominent role in their character. Rictor, Shatterstar

Maybe you need to take the history lesson in comics because then you would know that Rictor was straight before!!!!!! He dated Rhane!! Marvel, and I guess you too, thought that being gay is something one can decide on!!!!As for Shatterstar, even the creator admitted that he was not meant to be gay!!!Oh, wait you dont believe in the creation of new characters, that would just be insane!The only reason that they paired these two to try and attract gay readers.. Oh and Dust, how much face time does she have???(no pun intended) I havent seen her that much in Schism at all..hmmm Give me a second and let me check Regenesis...there she is on one panel! HOORAY! Maybe she has more shots in wolverine and the x-men, NOPE!! How noble of them to create her and not use her as much, I guess youre going to tell me that Muslims arent a huge part of the comic community as well so they should just shut up and be thankful that they were given a character right???

If DC is doing such a bad job, then how come the top 10 top selling comics in January belonged to them??? Riddle me that "GENIUS"! You really need to start reading everything rather than what you just want to see.... if you only took the time you might have realized that the REAL issue at hand is CREATIVITY!!!!!!

[leafman343]

Before this goes any further, pancho I realize you are new so you might not be familiar with the rules, but flaming needs to be kept to a minimum, i.e. none. That goes for Therapist as well . I might not be a mod but I don't want to see anyone banned. I knew this thread was going to be flame bait, but there is no reason why we can't have a friendly debate on the topic either.

[pancho1007]

Comics is a hard business, introducing new heroes is difficult because many readers already have their favorite heroes. That ends up meaning that the new characters don't catch on. While I understand your point that you would rather see completely new original characters than a new one riding on a existing character's legacy, it is that legacy that helps the readers accept and hopefully embrace the new character.
And yes I am saying that on their own, a new original Mexican hero would not sell well. In a group setting where we have time to warm up to this character, it might take off and do astonishing. It is uncanny how that works.

I agree its a hard industry, but even in a group setting I cant find any new relate-able characters as of late. As for Legacy being handed down, there has to be a limit. C'mon Kid Apocalypse?!(And dont get me started on VAMP Jubilee) Even you have to admit that this is stretching it. Can you blame me for thinking that Marvel is lazy? Whats wrong with a character who is inspired by a classic hero but having a total different set of powers.Why cant we have someone saved by spider-man and tries to do what he does but he/she discoveres or is given super speed or whatever super power in the process. I was always a Marvel fan, seeing them do this to themselves is just painful. Its really just poor writing which in turn makes their stories so predictable and boring.

That was a bit tongue in cheek, calling them scantily clad, though I think Emma Frost, Psylocke, Black Queen, Elektra and (sometimes) Storm do fall into the category of fighting crime in their underoos/bathing suits. I know there are, at least in the mutant portion of the MU, plenty of heroines. The problem there is that they don't get much time in the spotlight, so rather than dredging up old characters that for whatever reason weren't popular enough to carry a title, Marvel is intent on making new ones. Remember that bit I mentioned about legacies? This is where bringing in characters that have one can be a bad idea because readers will have preconceived notions about how the character should act.

The problem that I have is the ratio of male/female new characters. I get that the comic industry is trying to sell books through sex thats why they have their women dressed up in bikinis, or why every male character has an 8-pack. To be honest I dont even realize what the characters are wearing now.With all the books that I have read back in the day they did have an ample amount in the spotlight. Storm was the leader of the gold team and before that she was solely the leader of the x-men. What about the younger male readers? What new characters are being produced for them?

I want to be make myself perfectly clear , the issue I hold with Marvel is that they are forcing things to happen and they are spending waaaaaay too much in their comfort zone that its killing them. They should try and experiment more with NEW characters and if they dont sell they can kill them off for good!! That way they can kill 2 birds with one stone!It would give that villain or whatever situation some substance and they can play around with unexplored areas in the comic industry.

[pancho1007]

Before this goes any further, pancho I realize you are new so you might not be familiar with the rules, but flaming needs to be kept to a minimum, i.e. none. That goes for Therapist as well . I might not be a mod but I don't want to see anyone banned. I knew this thread was going to be flame bait, but there is no reason why we can't have a friendly debate on the topic either.

You have my word that I will be on my best behavior, I see why you are respected around here. Sometimes I just get carried away...I expect so much from Marvel and to see them where there are now is just heart-breaking. I would like to apologize to you Leafman for any transgressions I may have inflicted.

[therapist]

well now that we got all the agression out of the way

leafman. by now you should know all I do is flame and be mean to people. its my thing.


Pancho. Schism did suck ... we all know schism sucked. as for who a character dated that really doesn't matter lots of gay people dated the other sex before admitting to themself they where gay. I have gay and lesbian family thank you very much. As for originality well I am very well versed in the meaning but I also realize that it very rarely exist in comics anymore. Even brand spanking non legacy characters can easily be seen as "inspired" by other characters now that your not so ragey and admit that you just want better and expect better from Marvel that makes far more sense. I think we all expect better then Schism and X-saction but truth of the matter is I expect better from ALL the current companies not just marvel. I mean right now no ones hands are clean. I have been a comic fan and reader since I was a very young child and from my teens till now I have read more comics and met more people in the buisness then most people twice my age and I can honestly say ALL companies become worried about taking risk. DC took a big risk by the intruducing the new 52 but it was a calculated risk. They were well aware it would make it more main stream.

[pancho1007]

I find that there is nothing wrong with "inspired" characters, yes I get that original ideas are hard to come by these days. Thats why we as comic fans trust writers whole heartedly to try and come up with something fresh. They have the best job in the world and I cant help but feel betrayed by the lack of effort they are showing.

It is nice to know Therapist, that you and I agree that Schism was an abomination...What I dont understand is how can you support these lucrative decisions? Wolverine getting his own school? Avengers vs. X-men?(i should join the other forum, I have other things to get off my chest with this particular one)Spidey revealing that he is Pete then magically having everyone forget? Oh and the Sentry?(Yes i asked for original ideas,but surely they could have come up with someone better)I also agree that no ones hands are clean out there now. The comic industry is solely being supported by comic-movies, but I still hope that somehow they can turn things around, after all comics are where heroes come from.

Sure DC just pressed the reset button, but what other option did they have? They had so many parallel earths and out dated history that they basically did not have a choice. I mean I am a HUGE fan of the Flash, but I always wished that Wally West got his powers differently. I get passing down Legacy but there should be some thought that needs to be put in it. Im sure by now youve noticed that Marvel is digging themselves the same hole with their alternate realities. That is where my problem stems from with anyone from the "Ultimate Universe".

As for Image comics, well I respect them solely for trying to produce new characters...Some of the best stories back in the day I think are from Image... Extreme Sacrifice is one of them, the tragic Battle Chasers it was short but another classic! Also they made sure that when someone died they stayed dead(at least how i remember it)

[therapist]

I never remember stating I support those decisions. I think Joe Quesadilla ruined spider-man all because he was not happy in his marriage so he felt no one could be. AVengers VS. Xmen I have complained about many times. Wolverine getting his own school ...I don't 100% HATE I think its SEMI interesting the way we have Cyclops leaning towards becoming more like Magneto and Wolverine leaning towards becoming more like Xavier. I don't think I would rage if they became enemies in the way Magneto and Charles did. But I don't fully support it either. I think were are disagreement comes from is I am viewing "Marvel recently" as the last few years where your "marvel recently" seems to be far closer. I just think they had some really good new ideas that they were using for awhile such as the Runaways. I do agree though that they should bring back an idea they had many moons ago it was called like Marvel next or something where they brought out a few titles for one or two issues featuring new teams or characters and saw what people liked and what sold. I think last time they did it they had a team of cyborgs. I really enjoyed that book and hoped to see more but nothing ever came

Sure DC got confusing with all it's universes and MAYBE it would have been an okay idea if they learned from it but the earth-2 book kinda proves they didn't and they just reset just for the heck of it. I also feel that as DC stood that it really wasn't accessible by new fans I just think there had to be a way to make it more friendly to new readers without taking a dump on the long time fans. I mean COME ON! we still don't fully know what crisis did and did not happen. On a bias note they also completely disregarded some of my all time favorite characters Cassandra Cain and Ted Kord seem to be forgotten. I am sure man people lost favorite characters in this whole shake up. To me the reset seems to be nothing more then a giant money making scheme that they don't care about the fans at all. ... Before Watchmen...that is all.

Image...ehhhh I suppose I prefer Dynamite but thats a tad biased because The Boys is currently the only monthly title I buy and read religiously.

[ole jade jaw]

"To me the reset seems to be nothing more then a giant money making scheme that they don't care about the fans at all. ... "
Just want to chime in here. My opinion is that DC is comprised of comic fans producing books for fans. While I'm sure we all lost some characters and history we cared for, I believe (as sales numbers support) the relaunch has been extremely successful. The format of the universe thus far also leaves open the option of adding background story as they go. As far as therapist's last statement, between the quality of the stories and artwork, the reader sensitive price point, and their commitment to continue delivering on that quality, I whole-heartedly disagree!! This conclusion is not just mine, but is supported by the fact that a once nothing book like ...say... Aquaman now outsells any single ongoing monthly book over at the "house of 3.99 comics that our fanbase will consume no matter how little effort we put into making".
This has been a fact based statement thus far and has not conveyed the fact that I, personaly feel that most of the drivel Marvel produces these days is poorly drawn, unoriginal shlock designed for 12 year olds. That's just me though, I didn't want the first half of this post to be that biased.
Sorry, just had to get that out

[therapist]

"To me the reset seems to be nothing more then a giant money making scheme that they don't care about the fans at all. ... "
Just want to chime in here. My opinion is that DC is comprised of comic fans producing books for fans. While I'm sure we all lost some characters and history we cared for, I believe (as sales numbers support) the relaunch has been extremely successful. The format of the universe thus far also leaves open the option of adding background story as they go. As far as therapist's last statement, between the quality of the stories and artwork, the reader sensitive price point, and their commitment to continue delivering on that quality, I whole-heartedly disagree!! This conclusion is not just mine, but is supported by the fact that a once nothing book like ...say... Aquaman now outsells any single ongoing monthly book over at the "house of 3.99 comics that our fanbase will consume no matter how little effort we put into making".
This has been a fact based statement thus far and has not conveyed the fact that I, personaly feel that most of the drivel Marvel produces these days is poorly drawn, unoriginal shlock designed for 12 year olds. That's just me though, I didn't want the first half of this post to be that biased.
Sorry, just had to get that out

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it doesn't seem necessary to "emperors new clothes it" by suggesting that if you enjoy a product you are a "12 year old" if you disagree with what I have to say thats your business. I disagree with the "by fans for fans" comment. Before the commercialized new 52 people wanted Leifeld lynched. Geoff Johns solely wants things back to how they were when he was a kid. Barry being THE Flash. Cyborg part of the JLA (superfriends much?). your right there sales are doing good Justin Beiber is out selling the beatles well I guess he must be better then.